Do you think you're paid what you're worth? Do you think you have been offered the same quality opportunities as your male counterparts? If you're not sure, this episode is for YOU.
Our guest is Claire Wasserman, an educator, author, and founder of Ladies Get Paid, an educational platform, global community, and book that champions the professional and financial advancement of women. She knows what she's talking about because she holds a Master’s Certificate in Behavioral Finance and Financial Psychology and has devoted her life to improving diversity, equity, inclusion, and belonging for women in the workplace. She's traveled the country teaching thousands of women how to negotiate millions of dollars in raises, start businesses, and advocate for themselves in the workplace.
Elizabeth:
It is time to get paid. Today's guest is Claire Wasserman. She's an educator and author and the founder of Ladies Get Paid, which is one of my most favorite platforms. It really is incredible and it coincides with her book, Ladies Get Paid. And what it does is it really helps women level up in their careers and achieve financial freedom. And who doesn't need that? She is wicked smart. She has all sorts of tasty tips on how to negotiate, how to get those jobs in the first place that we need to really rise in the levels of leadership within corporate America. She's also got some great nuggets for entrepreneurs. So cozy up and listen to today's episode and get your notepad ready.
Claire Wasserman, thank you so much for being here today. I'm excited to chat about how to get these ladies paid. If you guys haven't checked out her website, clairewasserman.com or her YouTube, there is so much incredible content there. So many valuable interviews that you've done on shows like Good Morning America. I mean, you name it, she's been on it. But one that really struck me was an interview that you did and you really shared how frustrated you were. It was frustration and anger that really led you to birthing Ladies Get Paid. So I feel like there's a lot of frustration and anger—dare I say, rage—right now with women. And I wanted to kind of get your take on that and see if you feel like we're getting to a bit of a tipping point where that rage is gonna turn into some powerful action.
Claire:
I think we're pass the tipping point. Listen, I've been doing this since 2016, and really the rage, frustration, all the feelings, began closer to 2015 when I had a pretty sexist experience that just startled me enough to go down the rabbit hole of the internet when I began Googling women and the workplace. I mean, I didn't really consider myself a feminist before. I had no idea what it actually meant. And my mom never even really talked about the fact that she was the second or third class of women in her college. It was just assumed we were equal, workplaces are meritocracy, and that's a beautiful way to go about life, but it's also a privileged one and not realistic for many folks, particularly marginalized ones. So I'm grateful for the sexist experience. I'm grateful for all of the feelings, because it was enough to get me moving.
And that's the thing. I mean, ultimately, we have a choice. When you have all of these big feelings, I think you can either be paralyzed by them or you can use them as fuel. And I did both. I was paralyzed for about a year because it was overwhelming. You read these statistics around the wage gap and the leadership gap and the investment gap, and you think, as an individual, what could I possibly do to combat something so systemic? And long story short, at least it was, 'Well, let me ask for more money for myself, right? Let's close my own wage gap.' So you take the big and you break it down: how can I change not just my life—because I mean that's massive—but how about could I change today or this? And not again to say, don't have these big feelings, but just how can I use this? How can I make it work for me? That's Ladies Get Paid, and we're now 75,000 women strong in our community who join because usually they have a big feeling about something and then they translate it into action.
Elizabeth:
And there's so much great content on the website too for Ladies Get Paid. There are all sorts of free courses and cheat sheets and all of this great stuff. So I feel like it's really inclusive of all current income levels. There's nothing too small that you can do to start earning some financial freedom or feeling empowered. If you're willing to, could you share what happened, what that sexist experience was, that triggered you to make a move?
Claire:
At the time, I was the director of marketing for a professional network called Working, Not Working. And I'd had a similar job before. So I had been effectively in the recruitment space for a number of years, so I was already predisposed to be fascinated by community building and getting people hired. But I walk into this event, and by the way, this was during a festival, like an advertising festival. Many of our clients were advertising companies in the HR departments. We were there to find business. And this guy comes up to me, and he's older, and he says, "Hi, now tell me now whose wife are you?"
It's like, "Well, certainly not yours." Here's the thing though—it was all week: experiences like this where I was just not being taken seriously, mostly being objectified.
There was a lot of drinking, and I internalized it. I thought, Well, it must be me. I must be too friendly if I'm getting hit on, or My skirt's too short. And I realized, and this was what was so profound from this experience, was how I had had so many experiences like that in my career that I never stopped to consider the damage it was doing. I just wanted to ignore it, keep moving. But man, I was spending a lot of energy internalizing it. So yes, it was the sexism, but it was my processing of the sexism that actually woke me up. Stop spending energy internalizing, or beating myself up, or even being angry at the system. Time to make it work for me.
Elizabeth:
Yeah, I think that we all have war stories that we could definitely compare, and we would probably be really grossed out and really disappointed at some of the things that we've experienced. And then also probably didn't report to HR or didn't have the guts to call out at the time because there was legit retribution. If you did that you would be cut off business trips and you would be kind of left out in the cold for a lot of opportunities.
I wanted to get your opinion on this whole trend of, after #MeToo, it having a backlash into #NotHer and there being lower rates of women being invited on work trips for fear of potential, future liability, all these types of things. Did you and your community hear about that? Do you think that it's truly something that happened? Or do you think #MeToo was something that overall was more beneficial than having this kind of backlash that we're hearing about?
Claire:
Yeah, I'm not surprised at all. I mean, always backlash, right? When you look at history, it's not linear. You take one step forward and five steps back. And I've seen that with Ladies Get Paid. I mean, we got sued by a group of men's rights activists...
Elizabeth:
No way!
Claire:
... for gender discrimination. Yes. This happened, I wanna say 2018. If you wanna learn more about it, we actually created an entire campaign to help raise legal funds so we could survive this thing. So if you go to ladiesgetsued.com, you can see how we made not just lemons out of lemonade, but we made money out of it. But when that happened, I was naive enough at the time to actually be surprised by it. Now, I guess I'm jaded. So I've seen it all. I'm not surprised at the backlash. And I also am not surprised...it kind of makes sense. If men are really afraid, then, yeah, they're not gonna invite the women. I'm not saying I empathize, but I get it. We need a longer lens here before we can I think say whether or not something's been net positive.
Here's the thing. At the time that I had that very sexist experience, I wrote an essay about it, but I did not publish it for fear that I would be labeled a man-hater. That I would be completely misunderstood. That they would think I'm accusing these men for the sake of accusation and not talking about it in a larger context. And I felt really alone. What helped me at that time get through it was actually sharing the essay with some friends, who then shared it with their friends, who wrote me.
I started getting all of these beautiful emails of people effectively saying me too. And this was 2015, This was before anything Ladies Get Paid. It was just, "Hey, I've had this experience that I think is indicative of something much larger here, (aka, gender power dynamics). What do I do with it?" It's another time. It was very quaint that I was so scared and now I wouldn't be.
Elizabeth:
Yeah, I definitely witnessed, I didn't really fall prey, but I saw a lot of other women falling prey to the lure of, "You go to the spa while we're all gonna do a golf outing and we're gonna be in a golf cart with the CEO" and all of these things. I actually begrudgingly taught myself how to play golf because I was like, "You're not gonna keep me out of these conversations."
But then you see the attitudes and the dialect change just by the presence of a woman on a golf course. I mean, I got into it with my husband this weekend. He is an avid golfer, and he is a white male who's been incredibly privileged. And I'm a white female who's been incredibly privileged. But at the same time, I was kind of getting on a soapbox about country clubs and all of these things and how they're just inherently sexist and racist and therefore it doesn't surprise me.
I think that there's a link between all of these high-level meetings that are going on, and they're linked to these golf outings because they know most of these institutions didn't even allow women, much less people of color, on them within the last 50 years. And he's just looking at me like, Oh my God, what is she talking about? But I really feel like all of this stuff is there, and maybe they just want us to quit being a pain in the ass and be quiet about it and just play the game. But I'm really sick of it, and I feel like I wanna call out every company that only does golf outings. It feels like they're, in so many ways, trying to keep women out. And I'm sure there are a handful of women, more than a handful, who love golf. But I think that there are just really traditional institutions who have biases and discrimination against women in them. Do you agree or do you think I'm going a little off the deep end?
Claire:
No, I'm obviously on the same page as you. But what's funny is my co-founder of Ladies Get Paid and also my wife Ashley, her dad made her go to golf camp because when she was growing up, and he explicitly said to her, "because it's gonna help you in business." And she ended up becoming the captain of the golf team. But hated it. Hated the whole thing. So I always thought that was sort of funny.
But here's the thing, and I'm just gonna call it out and be very transparent. The men are not wrong to be annoyed, afraid, whatever, insert the adjective. Because if we're saying we want more women in power, that inherently means there will be less men in power. Now, this actually helps business. I wanna be clear. There's research that says diversity in leadership improves the bottom line. So this is not doing a favor or in the name of fairness. There's no kumbaya here. I just wanna make more money. However, if there's more women, then there's less men. So I get, again, it all makes sense.
Elizabeth:
Yeah, I couldn't agree more. And I think mean, maybe we should take it as a compliment that everybody's so fucking threatened. But everybody's got their feathers all ruffled now. I feel it. Maybe it's because it's closer to the surface now because women are talking about this more and it's becoming more public knowledge that there are bro cultures and there is inherent racism and sexism and all sorts of biases and that they actually compound.
If you're a woman, there's one. There's a certain percentage, like 30%, and then there's a motherhood penalty. And then if it's LGBTQ, which I'm sure you've experienced, there's another penalty. Then if you don't have the same religious beliefsm or you're of a different ethnicity—it just builds up. And at some point, it just feels like there is this mountain to overcome to get to some of these things that other people don't experience. I think the thing that's frustrating is the lack of caring or giving a shit to really try to understand some of the other people's experiences that haven't been as easy. I think that's what really is the trigger. I don't know about for me, I'm sure it is for you too. But it's the kind of, "Everything's fine. What are you talking about? We're not like that." And it's like, "No, the fact that you aren't even willing to really peek behind the curtain and examine if you're like that is the problem."
Claire:
Yeah. I mean listen, human nature: we do things in service of ourselves. It's just survival. It's not even being selfish. It's like I'm just trying to do the best I can. So I think if we can show others how it is in their interest to be supportive, then we'll all.. What is it? Rising tide lifts all boats. And it's true. Again, there's research that shows that companies make more money. Or I always say, if you're trying to figure out how much to charge, talk to other people about their salaries. There's a way to do it. You don't have to straight up ask somebody how much they make. But remember, when you ask somebody how much they make or you start the conversation around money, yes, it's helping you, but it's also helping them because they're gonna have to figure this stuff out too.
Elizabeth:
Oh my God, you're a mind reader. Because my next question was, do you feel like a big piece of closing this wage gap is transparency, like salary transparency? I actually have a running Excel sheet of all of my clients, and I don't have their names there, but it's something that I share with other clients on in this city, in this role, this is the total comp, and these are what some of the responsibilities are. But I really need that sheet with men's salaries as well.
Claire:
Oh yeah. And I think that's huge. I'm seeing that there's more states now that are requiring—Idaho, Colorado, I think they were first. I'm pretty sure California had just passed a law where you have to post a salary. I mean, yeah, why are the ones who are the best negotiators getting the most money? This is not how it should be. I shouldn't have to be in business. We joke that we're the only business who's trying to put ourselves out of business.
Elizabeth:
Yeah.
Claire:
I mean I don't wanna have to teach salary negotiation.
Elizabeth:
Right? I mean you're an expert at it, and so I was wondering if you could speak on this idea of money shame and how that might tie in or be linked with the resistance against renegotiating or negotiating your salary.
Claire:
Yeah. Oh, there's so many layers to it. I mean, that's why I am fascinated by salary negotiation because it's a microcosm of a lot of other things, which is namely, do you believe that you are worthy of this salary negotiation? I've had women who say, "Well what happens if I get the money? Will I live up to it?" A lot of imposter syndrome there to deal with. My joke is it's like join Ladies Get Paid, but also get a therapist.
So there's first the self-advocacy piece. Then, am I doing the kind of work and do I know, intimately and quantifiably, the kind of work that I'm doing and how it impacts the business bottom line? Being able to really dig into the financial ecosystem of the company and the ways in which you are contributing, which could be time saved or you've contributed to the company culture.
You have to draw the connection between that and the business bottom line. And for a lot of people's roles, and particularly women's roles, that's not easy or obvious. Salesperson: that's obvious. Most salespeople are men. So that now requires us to do a lot of creative digging into that and to our work and how we demonstrate throughout the year, by the way, which means getting over this fear of bragging. I would say shift your focus to seeing your work as a service. You are telling them how you've helped them. We love that. Also for the success of your manager, it's based on you. It's based on the team. So you need to inform them.
Again, it's not just the salary negotiation and advocating at the time, it's also in the year, the months leading up to it. And also having the guts to ask about compensation and how it's determined when budgets are decided. Maybe you need to be having these conversations closer to that time. There's a lot of layers to it. But I would say the first part is, do you believe that you're deeply worthy of it? And can you translate your worthiness into dollars?
Elizabeth:
It's so huge. And I think that that question of worthiness is maybe one that we don't always wanna look at. It's easier just to blame your boss or your organization and say, "You know what? They just keep screwing me" or "they're gonna not give me my bonus this year, even though I worked really hard for it."
I believe in spiritual alignment. And I really think that in order to be aligned and to allow that money to flow to you, I think you really deeply have to believe it yourself. Also, to your point, it's gonna be really hard to sell them on giving you that money, even if you think you earned it, if you're not really drinking your own koolaid. And if you can't come with the receipts? I think what you said too about the timing of it is so huge because how many times do we go in to negotiate, and to your point, budgets have already been established, or bonus breakdowns, percentages have already been solidified. It's already decided and cleared with HR and ELT what everybody's gonna get. And they make the case that they can't go back. And it's, "Let's have this discussion again next year."
Obviously, you should be checking in with your boss frequently and kind of tooting your own horn as much as possible. I love to keep emails, anything that that says you did a great job or infers how much revenue any one of your projects helped contribute to the organization. But do you think that it's better to have quarterly or bi-annually reviews or salary discussions?
Claire:
Oh, a thousand percent. Or more. I mean, first of all, make sure you're consistently meeting, and get an understanding from your boss about the way that they like to communicate. Because first of all, I always wanna put things in writing because it makes it real. But maybe instead of a really long meeting, periodically, how about every couple days or once a week, a five minute, 10 minute, and all you're doing is just checking on priorities or talking about how are we defining and measuring success? Because those things that are going to impact your raise, because you gotta point to them.
I would say figure out a cadence with which to have more consistent, impactful meetings that's not wasting anybody's time and is very, very clear for everybody what you're working towards, which is growth. And growth is measured in, yes, dollars, but also in responsibilities: the kind of work you're doing, the influence that you're able to have, meetings that you can have, people you can have access to. Cause again, that's going to get rewarded. My concern is that a lot of us are going in and we're working really hard and we're like, "Look at my work. Isn't it great?" And it's like, it's not even the work that tends to get recognized and rewarded. There's research that says that men are just naturally given those opportunities. There's actually a word for it, and it's called glamour. Glamour work.
Elizabeth:
Oh!
Claire:
Yes. And these are projects where they get to be invited to meet with stakeholders, whether they're internal or external, or stretch opportunities. Things that just make them look good. And we're doing the behind the scenes work that makes things keep moving. And we think, "Well shouldn't I get rewarded for that?" But there's a misalignment between how management is looking at recognition and reward and how we might be. The only way you're gonna figure that out is if you are meeting consistently. It's not one or two or three times a year that you're gonna know this stuff. You really have to keep checking in. But again, make sure you're doing it in a way that doesn't waste anybody's time.
Elizabeth:
Yeah, I totally agree with that. And I preach to clients, you need to have, if you can swing, a weekly one-on-one, which most will, and these are pretty high levels. I think that you can get time. And they're like, "Well, we don't have anything established. We talk a million times." And I'm like, "No, I think you need to have an established weekly one on one. You need to set an agenda, you need to share that agenda. And I think a point on that agenda should always be, what are the priorities and how am I doing against these KPIs?" And because then you get the receipts then too, Claire, right? It's like, oh yeah. And then after that meeting you can send a recap, and say, "These were the three things that you said I was overachieving on and here's an area of opportunity."
Claire:
And also ask about—you might know your KPIs, but what about for the business? How is the business doing? And a great way to figure this stuff out is to ask or to do research on where the company is investing. If there's certain departments or people that they're getting more budget, start aligning your work and your networking actually in that area. Because the fact of the matter is you may reach a ceiling, and it has nothing to do with your gender or your race. It really is that what your function, your role, your department, whatever it is, is just simply not where the business is focusing or where the industry is going. That might mean shifting into a new department. You may need to change what you do to make more money.
Elizabeth:
It's such good advice. And I think that's the other big piece, too, is don't be afraid to pivot. Don't be afraid to make a change. Because I think even when with my book Career Confinement, you can really feel confined. You just said it: there might be a tippy top to your band that you're just never going to be able to surpass. Maybe $250k is the most you're ever gonna make in this role or in this industry or whatever. I think it's always good for us to constantly be following what we're curious about or as Rachel Power says, "Follow the jealousy and everyone should be a millionaire."
Look out what it is that really kind of speaks to your soul. And for you, it was being an advocate for women's financial representation and freedom. You made a huge pivot and started that. I don't think that we necessarily need to just stay and walk the course. I think the biggest piece is knowing that you have the right and the responsibility to yourself to really take a hard look at what you're doing. And maybe it's time to make a move.
Claire:
And by the way, thank you for sending me your book. I'm so excited to read it.
Elizabeth:
Yay. Well, I can't wait to hear what you think about it.
But I think, too, a lot of people in the law and the legal and medical professions... I was just talking with my OB the other day as I was getting my annual (ladies, get your annuals), and I gave her a copy of the book and she was excited about it. And she goes, "Yeah, I went through all of this school to be an OB and now I'm here. And I'm kind of like, 'Okay, so this is what I do every day.'" And I was like, You're not trapped.
You have to feel like you can pull into the far left lane of the financial highway and hit the gas. But if you're always in those other lanes and some slow ass cars in front of you, you're just gonna get frustrated and you're gonna get burnt out. And I think a little bit of our soul dies when we don't feel valued. And to your point, financial currency and earning potential plays a big role in that, right?
Claire:
Oh, a thousand percent. Cause it's a concrete way to measure your value. I mean, we live in a capitalistic society. I mean, A) we need money to survive, let alone thrive. But also, we oftentimes, we see, or are taught to see, our kind of net worth equal our self-worth. So it's an interesting exercise because I have women first deeply believe in their worth and then figure out how to articulate it in terms of dollars.
But I also need everyone to forget about the dollars and just focus on the worth too, because our society has decided that we don't value teachers and nurses enough to pay them more. But I don't want anybody who's in those positions to think that they're not. Don't look at their paycheck as an indicator of their worth. At the same time, you have to play that game. You have to make that case when you're negotiating. So it's really, again, this is why I love what I do, because it's math, it's how we feel about the math, right? But also at the end of the day, really, you have to feel okay, you have to be healthy, you have to be sane and money is required for that. But money is not everything.
Elizabeth:
Also, I think money can flow to you as well. I mean, I really think if you're in a state of resistance all day long, and maybe it's because you don't really enjoy your job anymore, you've lost passion, or you're just burnt out, all of these kinds of things, I think it just really narrows the opportunities for money through creative means to find you. So I always say, find the joy. Start feeling good, and a lot of these other things will seem achievable. You can have the conversation with your boss. You can improve your LinkedIn. Girl, I can't tell you how many people don't wanna mess with their LinkedIn. And I'm like, "Do your LinkedIn." I don't know. I think my boss then will know that I'm looking to get a new job or something. I'm like, no. You are a representation of that company.
If anybody asks you why your LinkedIn looks amazing, it's because you don't want the company to look bad. There's little things, but there is a lot of resistance. And at the root, you nailed it. It's a self worth thing. So I know that I feel so much better having amazing women like you out there creating incredible platforms and sharing so much incredible insight and knowledge that I am really hopeful that, at some point, we will get this wage gap closed. And it won't take as long as predicted. I don't even know the specific number, but it's something cripplingly scary, how long it will take to close it.
Claire:
I think things are changing. I mean, Gen Z is like...
Elizabeth:
They're no bullshit.
Claire:
No, they're no bullshit. And also when I talk about how I started Ladies Get Paid by bringing women together to talk about money because it's taboo subject. That almost feels quaint now. Or the thought of asking or being really strong about wanting to know, not just some diversity efforts at a potential new job, but how are they measuring results and holding themselves accountable? None of us would've even thought to ask or I don't wanna say none of, but a lot of us, would have even thought to ask that in an interview, let alone have the courage to ask it. Now it's a given. And again, I don't wanna generalize, but I find in, and this has just been what, since 2016, that's a lot of change. And that is why there's a backlash because things have changed.
Maybe we sort of wear the backlash as a badge of honor. But I mean Gen Z, they're freelancing right out the gate because they realize they wanna be in charge, take command of their lives, and their careers. And the way that you can do that is by having your own thing and putting your life first, and your career fits into your life as opposed to the other way around. So as a mid-to-geriatric millennial over here, I'm getting outdated.
Elizabeth:
I'm a geriatric millennial. It's okay. It's, It's a good group.
Claire:
I'm turning 36 in a month, so...
Elizabeth:
Oh My God, I'm 41. I am at the Razor. I was born in 81. The razor's edge of millennial.
Claire:
I'm 36. Yeah.
Elizabeth:
I feel like we have, we've both been in the shit to see where it was, and then also where it's headed. So I know I'm very grateful to you. I'm sure all of our listeners are as well. Ladies, stay hopeful, stay active, and get yourself paid. And if you need more insights, hook up with Claire Waserman. Thank you so much for being on the show. There's been a ton of insight, and I really appreciate your time.
Claire:
Thank you so much for having me.
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